Dialogue with Dr. Matt Cassidy
by: Adison H. Wongkar

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Dr. Matt Cassidy is a senior pastor at Grace Covenant Church in Austin, Texas. He has a Doctorate of Ministry from Talbot Seminary, a Master's of Divinity in Pastoral Studies from the International School of Theology, and a BBA in Finance from the University of Texas at Austin. Matt and his wife, Melinda, are happily married with three children.

Grace Covenant Church has a vision to be “a courageous church, where every believer is a minister, equipped and united, to impact people for Christ, for the glory of God.”

Note: The opinions reflected in this interview is solely the interviewee's and do not necessarily represent FICA Cross Point's.

AW: How do you define what a minister is? In other words, being a minister, what should every believer do differently? How is it different from practicing personal piety?

MC: Well, it is two folds in that: a minister pleases God through obedience and living a holy and righteous life and then he/she ministers to others by trying to help them in understanding what the gospel is and how to live a life that surrenders to God. A minister is a person that introduces other people to: 1) who God is and what it takes to become one of His children and then 2) how to live a life that glorifies or pleases God and then continues to do that with as many people as you can. It seems that in these days that's best done through service and compassion and expressions of compassion.

AW: So this would be like helping the fellow humans who are victims of Hurricane Katrina or Jogjakarta earthquake?

MC: Well, those are acts of compassions that have to do with, obviously, acts of nature that tend to be happening at a long distance. What we try to do is help people understand that God has providentially and sovereignly placed them next to people already. We try to help people have the vision - which I think is already there, they just need to see it - that the people that are living next to them and the people that are working next to them are there so that they could minister to them. So earthquake relief and tsunami relief are just good things to do by themselves but generally you don't develop relationship in those context, and there's rarely discipleship applied to it. So, those are just good things to do.

What we try to do on our house would be to pray for people on our street on both sides of our house and across the street and wait for opportunity to care for them. And we had 2-3 people who have dire situations that came up at home and my wife especially would care for the women and I would talk to the husbands and then we get them involved in support group of GCC and sometimes they do that and they would go back to their other church, whatever it might be. That's what we tried to do. It's more relational long term. It's what we ask to do for people in marketplace for the people they have been working with - people in teams or in hallway, just looking for opportunity to care for them.

AW: So it's more about praying for people, looking for opportunity to serve them and bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ.

MC: Right. It's kind of like the outline of Lighthouse ministry: prayer, care, share. It's not a program so much as it is a philosophy. I think the prayer part is very important for couple of reasons: 1) by praying for people around you, you are aware of them and it is asking in your prayer because you can pray for them as a priest on behalf of them and talk to God about them and we have found that people live lives where needs come up regularly; and so you pray for them, you have relationship with them; you can say: “Hey, how can I pray for you.”

AW: So if I may extend this a bit to the context of Indonesia… In United States it is pretty normal to come to people regardless of what religion they are of and asking “how can I pray for you” but in Indonesia where the climate is very dominated by Islam, it might not be as welcomed. Perhaps you've heard a case in Indramayu, Central Java, where some housewives were arrested because they were accused of evangelizing to kids in neighborhood who are Muslims. What would you think of the concept of ministry in that context?

MC: Well, they have to figure out a way to love people in such a way that the people would not want them to be turned in. I don't know the details of the circumstances but I could see why a number of mothers would say that's not fair because you're grown up and talking to my child. I'm not against that, don't get me wrong, but what would have happened if the mothers have been serving other mothers for weeks, months, years and been working with them by just loving them in times of needs. In the context of Indonesia where there is religious persecution, you have to be far more subtle and you have to be more overtly loving. You'll have to be subtle in when and how you explain these things.

AW: Billy Graham, the preacher, surely makes the cut as a minister. But do you see William Wilberforce or the contemporary Martin Luther King Jr. as ministers? Why?

MC: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, Billy Graham is not much a minister. He's more of a pastor and evangelist, that's all he does. If you just do the statistics or the math, there will never be enough Billy Graham to reach the world. So, Billy Graham's ministry is a little bit Catholic in that you bring your people to the priest and he talks to God for them and talk to them for God, and then he explains everything and he takes care of business. The reformation is about priesthood of all believers and everybody going out into the marketplace, in the neighborhood and in the place of influence. If there is an ambition to reach the world, the only way it can statistically ever be actualized is that every convert, every believer who is calling themselves a disciple does the work of the ministry. So, yeah, I would really underlist here what William Wilberforce was doing in politics and used his vocation, intelligence, and worldview to end slave trade and made huge influence in a number of people.

AW: Talking about impact that a minister should bring… in GCC's bulletin, there is a picture of 5 different buildings, each representing a circle in which believers need to bring impact: home, business, government, college, and (K-12) school. How do you define the impact that Christians should bring in these public spheres? Perhaps you could pick your heroes for each sphere: home, business, government, college, and school.

MC: I think in every culture you could be overtly loving and caring and then depending on how God is leading you, you can be overtly evangelistic or not.

There was an ad 20 years ago about Kool-Aid. The ad asked “who is the Kool-Aid mom on your block?” and Kool-Aid mom serves Kool-Aid to all the kids in the block. Generally kids would come and they all play and that mom would be like a camp director. We try to make our stay-at- home moms Kool-Aid moms where other kids come and other parents would trust that their kids are safe there and it's a means of connecting with the other moms on the neighborhood, sometimes even connecting with the kids. Although in the context of Indonesia you probably have to be careful with the kids. Evangelizing between kids and kids are different than mom and kids.

So that's one way. In business community, a number of our members are very involved in the lives of people that they work with. There have been a number of situations where our members have been considered pastors and no one knew it. A couple of situations our members spoke at funerals and brought the word of God and encouragement of eternal life at the funeral. And people would say, “thank you pastor for coming” and he would answer “I'm not a pastor; I work at IBM just as he did.” Our people visits hospital when people get sick; or does pre-marital counseling; and so on. It's using the gifts you have in marketplace to help people in any way you can. The older you get the more resources you have and with influences you can help them in counseling people.

In colleges, some Christian professors are writing papers for the university. It's a very difficult to be a declared Christian in the university, especially in liberal arts school and philosophy department and the history department, and certainly in hard sciences as well. Some of them do not have tenures but they do it anyway, and it's especially risky for them. And then some students are also doing prayer-share-care thing in the dormitory. What we try to do is get our kids to be RA (residence assistant) and be a mentor in their hallway. Oftentimes they stay at the dorm until their junior or senior year. It's a great way to have an influence on younger students.

In school, a number of people come up with the idea they call “Heart to heart” for fifth graders up to junior high. They're teaching young girls character-based study from the Bible on truth-telling and encouragement versus gossip. That has been very successful on some of our school districts.

So, you know, it comes down to people hearing God's voice about these same problems. And the thing is getting so bad morally in the States that there is an obvious need. Most of these ministries are lay-led. It's not like a pastor dream up a way in the elementary school. Moms did. They're there and they initiate the idea. And then you have to have the guts to do it.

AW: In U.S. the area of public policy is under attack by the liberals to remove God from constitution and courthouses, to establish gay marriage, and so on. On the other hand, Indonesia sees its public policy under heavy influence of radical Islamic groups' agenda to replace the constitution with Shariah law. What do you think is the role of Christians in these situations? How about the Church? What should they do?

MC: Well, it's sort of difficult for me to imagine what life is like in Indonesia. But based on the readings that I have done and my understanding on the human nature, any law based/merit based system are without directory and hope. Christianity is grace based and it brings hope and joy. And I think by bringing the truth of the gospel out, it has to stand out in a contrarian way in the culture.

In my readings about death camp and people in death camp, there is a present of just not being broken by a law. When we talk to people in former Soviet Union, the Christians there care for other people. In a culture that's heavy laden, smiling is an anomaly. When somebody does it, it attracts attention. So, Christianity would make itself different from the culture. I would probably just lean very tender on what the spirit is leading us to do.

I'm very cautious about setting up a plan that worked 80 years ago or currently in other part of the world. I think every big movement of God has been a movement of God. Almost every great movement of God is a consequence of somebody that really prays and knows God. And God asks them to do something great and life threatening and they do it. This is even true in the black movement in South: Rosa Parks not sitting in the back and Martin Luther King who were just a pastor in a small church in Alabama. [God's plan] kind of takes a life of its own. Its goal is not to see something happen in your life time because that's never promised. Sometimes the goal is to suffer and suffer well for God. We have to be careful of what we are calling success.

I think if a revival breaks out in Indonesia within our life time - that would be a fabulous thing. But church history is prevalent with just the contrary: hundreds of years gone by without anything but darkness. If the remnant is there, a lot of Christians are holding their breath.

AW: What do you think is the role of local church in invading these spaces/circles? Do you think the local church should be actively involved in public life reality (for example, speaking out on certain issues, organizing community project or rallies) or should it see its function indirectly as merely to equip its members? Could you explain the reason behind your position?

MC: I don't know if you could argue one way or the other. It's better to have people of influence in situations or circumstances where they can make godly decisions. I think William Wilberforce being in parliament is more important than a church surrounding parliament marching around it.

Here's the other thing that I remember about being a minister in the marketplace: if that's not true, then why are you there spending thousands of hours just doing nothing, just making widgets if you are working for a factory.

But if the ministry is in the marketplace then going out there and developing relationship has a whole different meaning to it. Then you start looking forward to going to work. Now you're doing it for some bigger purpose in mind.

I think the church in America has to be very careful about getting overly political about certain things. They need choose their battle well. I'm not having problems with having a church say ok we're going to take this issue or that. But a lot of political Christians being at our church want - I mean they have an issue of the day. They want to do something every Sunday. And if we do that, then we're not a church anymore, we're just doing political action.

AW: Many Indonesians, including Indonesian Christians, are coming to U.S. to gain higher education (college and grad school) and work experiences. In Austin, there are about 200+ students and even more working professionals. Majority of them will return to Indonesia after finishing school or after gaining years of work experience. How would you see or describe the opportunity for these people to be “missionaries” to Indonesia?

MC: The ability for you guys to go back to your homeland is the best model of mission in Church history. In the old days white missionaries would go to these countries and get them to wear ties and act and sing like Western Europeans do. It was crazy. Over the years we realized that when we tried to make them Christians we're actually making them westerns. So the model that's going on right now is like Phillips sharing to Ethiopian eunuch and he went back to his homeland. That's a great model.

And another thing is: you're not supposed to be dependent upon the missionary. And that's the problem with the old model. It was just another Catholic-revisited. That guy that went to seminary was going to be the source of all Bible knowledge and all that kind of information and wisdom. This model that you're doing, coming here getting the education in business or engineering or something like that and then getting equipped to teach to read your Bible, understand basic theology, and then going back and take that into the life that you live over there - I think it's going to be a great thing.

AW: Not all of the students come from a Christian family background and the expectation of the family, in terms of success, might be very different. Given this situation, there would be a lot of challenges facing these students to go back and be effective in ministering. What is your advice?

MC: A couple of things: Jesus never was subtle about what it cost to follow Him. He didn't hide things. It could cost you everything. It's pretty important that people know what they're getting into in the first place. When it comes to family, family is typically the most difficult group to minister to. You know, you will always the little boy that your mom and dad changed the diapers of. Remember the prayer-share-care thing? It has to be a lot of prayer and a lot of care before you share with them. Sometimes it takes 10-20 years, and that's okay. 10-20 years is okay. When you start having a family, your parents would look at the way you're raising your children and how your marriage is. Again, if you follow the Bible, the Bible is not only true but it also works. And so, they see people that are joy-filled. Your mother might notice that your wife is thoroughly in love with you and she's never seen that and she wonders why. Again, that might take 20 years.

If you look at Daniel, he is a great model for this (not in marriage, because he never married). But he and Nehemiah were godly men in pagan culture. They were well educated and gifted by God - we're seeing this in parts of China as well, where people being blessed by God praying “God, would you make this business deal work so that I could be a success in the eyes of my family and peers.” In the economy, it's praying that I want to beat them [the competition] but I want to beat them with righteousness.

AW: What kinds of equipping do you see as vital, both in terms of spiritual equipping and skill/substance needed to be a proper missionary that could bring impact to Indonesia?

MC: On equipping: in the early part of your career, you need to work hard or harder than most people. In sports or business, you're the first one there and the last one to leave. If you're the whiner, if you're the loafer, if you're the guy who's always complaining about how hard things are, then be quiet and don't tell about Jesus because nobody respects you. So you have to go there and you have to earn their respect and stay quiet for a while and you constantly praying that they might bring up conversations, for example, that they want to know what's different, they want to know what works in your marriage, etc. Just sitting around the table and that kind of stuff over there people talking about how bad their marriage is, or thinking about cheating on their wives, perhaps it's common in a lot of cultures to have prostitutes. And you just don't.

AW: When we talk about bringing impact, we will almost always talking about swimming against the current. It is easier in Indonesia, for example, to take part in status quo of corrupt and deceitful business practice using double book-keeping rather than standing up to God's standard of holiness. In fact, even believers will tell other believers to be 'realistic' and not be so radical in attempting to bring impact.

MC: In China where the practice of corruption is standard, we've seen that some started to pay their taxes in their whole history and God is blessing them over and over again. If it is just a matter of cultural standard, then you go with cultural standard - when in Rome, you do what Romans do. But if it is against a Biblical standard, such as paying taxes and that sort of thing, you just have to obey what the Bible says and do it.

AW: It's easy doing easy thing without courage. But things that matter to God tend to be not easy to accomplish. How in earth could we be courageous? How do you define what courageous is?

MC: Well, courage is not being a sissy and it's also not charging hell. When I get advice from Christians that says don't be courageous and they're sissy, I don't want to listen to them because they're not crazy about anything. When I get advice from someone that is courageous and he might tell me: don't fight this battle, you're young and naïve and idealistic and this is not the battle you want to get involved. If you're trying to make a stand on every little thing, you might not have influence or impact on anything. And generally you would become self-righteous about it.

A lot of Christians don't understand this, they really don't. I work with a number of Christian organizations and they are looking for something to do or a fight to care. David did not go out looking to kill a giant, okay. He just did what God told him to do. He killed the lion because he is a shepherd. That's just the way it works. You get real connected with God, you love what He loves and you get mad about things He gets mad about. And then you just see what happens. So, David did not walk around looking to pick up a fight. And sometimes there are people like David's brothers who are just sissies, “don't be courageous and don't draw attention to yourself.” You don't want to listen to those people. I really don't want to because they can get contagious. So, you have to know when to start throwing the rock and when to not.

AW: Proverbs 29:18 says: “Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained …” We can surely spend countless effort at our own vision instead of God's vision. What are the essential factors in considering whether or not a vision is from God? Let me also explain why this question is relevant. A lot of our students struggle through this question to find their God-given vision in life.

MC: Well, to answer this question, we're going to spend six weeks [of sermons] right here at GCC. It starts with the Word of God, a vibrant prayer life, finding out who you are, how you are uniquely made, and what unique experience you had; and then looking at circumstances in life and how they may be showing God's will for you and then consulting the right kind of mature believers. And then finally you just have to stake out and do it.

I think when you're twenty or so, when you're in college years, you're still laying a lot of foundations and it's not fair to have to figure it out. It's hard to say about your culture 'cause I don't really know it, but in our culture if you're forty years old and you know what you're here for and you're doing it, you've done yourself great.

So, sometimes you spend your 20s and 30s just kind of bouncing off various walls realizing that I can't do that, I'm not good at that, etc. and it kind of brings you narrow and narrower and you're finding out hey, I'm very good at this but my weaknesses are glaring, so I'll have to have a partner to do it. So, that's a very good thing to get to forty and to be able to do what you do and do it well, do it with integrity, and be efficient. That's fabulous. So, I think in your college years there are still a lot of blurs and that's okay. It's part of growing up. You've never had jobs or experiences in real life at that point. That comes later.

AW: How can we be objective enough to plainly perceive God's vision to a point where we utterly disregard the cost for that obedience? We're often prone to make excuses to not enter the area where God might be leading us.

MC: If God's calling you to do something, He'll call you and you'll know it's His voice. See where He's leading you. So, let's just say you're a civil engineer and you end up taking your dad's business and you run it and been working with the government. And then you know what, there is a position open at the city council and you realize it is a place of influence. Prayer-care- share: it's based on God doing the positioning, and not you. Just do what you do well. See, God knows you. Pray fervently. Know God and His words. And He will explain it to you. And if there's a lion, kill it. Don't pray that it will go away.

AW: Ok, that's all my questions. I think we should conclude the interview now. Thank you so much for taking some time off from your busy schedule to be available for this interview.

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